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> 23rd September 0.18 Beta Trial
Sharpedge
post Sep 23 2006, 08:20 PM
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Just a few notes about what we found today.

1) Jaeger - switching to his sword causes a crash (I think everyone knows about this one now, heh).

2) Sabre animations are messed up for both officers. They tend to stutter and jerk all over the screen.

3) New musket sounds are excellent but many feel (myself included) that they should entirely replace the old sounds instead of being alongside them.

4)Melee seemed worse since the last time we tried out the beta. Hits just not going where they're placed especially when you're at super-close range.

5) Very difficult to hit a moving target. Not sure if we're just not used to the bullet speeds yet but it seems very difficult to judge where to lead your shot. Seems it favours more extreme leading than 0.17 (I have to point out at this stage it could also be because I'm rubbish wink.gif ).

I think that about covers what we found today. Any further thoughts?
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Nathan Hale
post Sep 23 2006, 09:42 PM
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Yep the account above is about right.

Leading is much more apparent now. I think it's a combination of hitboxes, lag and bullet physics.

Melee is pretty messy- I'm not sure what is wrong with it but it seems like it's almost impossible to hit anything reliably. Even pointblank on-target attempts are total misses many times.

Shooting in general is a little more reliable, but again you really have to lead your target almost a full step if you're lagging at all (ping above 50-60). Maybe slightly expand the hitboxes? Make them bigger than the current 18 beta but smaller than the 17 large+bound boxes? It seems like a decent compromise between realism and game play concerns- considering in most games many players ping above 50.

Other than that good game today to those who played.

This post has been edited by Nathan Hale: Sep 23 2006, 09:44 PM


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jackx
post Sep 23 2006, 10:05 PM
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Not much to add indeed...
hitting people in the back in melee seems virtually impossible, all it does is generate fake hits.

I don't mind the need to lead targets while shooting, and it also (unintentionally) does a good job at simulating the rather long delay between pulling the trigger and a discharge on a flintlock firearm.


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Nathan Hale
post Sep 23 2006, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE(jackx @ Sep 23 2006, 06:05 PM) [snapback]25374[/snapback]

Not much to add indeed...
hitting people in the back in melee seems virtually impossible, all it does is generate fake hits.

I don't mind the need to lead targets while shooting, and it also (unintentionally) does a good job at simulating the rather long delay between pulling the trigger and a discharge on a flintlock firearm.


I'm unsure on equating those two. The delay would apply to all flintlocks, but the lag-lead applies only above certain pings. It's sorta frustrating because the threshold for the troubles is somewhat low it seems, though people with really good pings don't seem to have nearly as much trouble. Regardless, I think more testing with more shooters is in order before we decide what to do with it to mitigate the issue there.

But hey that's why we got beta test- to fix all this stuff.


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jackx
post Sep 24 2006, 10:43 AM
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I can hit as well as always, with a ping of ~80 on the Tront server. It'll suck for NA players, but that's how it's always been with EU servers and will probably remain so for a long time.
Also don't forget that you have 100ms video lag on top of your actual latency, and thus even with 0 ping would have to lead your target xd.


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Nathan Hale
post Sep 24 2006, 05:47 PM
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The problem is that the lag tends to increase a lot as servers fill. So what was present in the test server with, maybe 6-8 people will be really nasty with a pub holding maybe 16-20 or so. Is there anything in 18 to combat the pile-on lag? I think that's worth a look, even if it yields nothing. I know last night was a case in point where a group of 6 or so were playing castle in a server that is low ping for the NA players. In the course of about 5 minutes another 10 or 12 people joined and the lags went up and people began to complain. If you get that
pile-on effect going with the new physics game play could vary wildly between having 6 people and 16 people.


Hell I don't know what the fix for this would be, if there is one at this point. The physics we have in 18 are workable, if not a little twitchy with the lag. It's something that should probably wait until after the more immediate fixes are done and another couple tests go through.

This post has been edited by Nathan Hale: Sep 24 2006, 05:51 PM


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jackx
post Sep 24 2006, 07:06 PM
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Better servers, and servers not running at more player slots than what they can handle should fix the "pile-on" problem easily.

If you find lag increasing significantly as the server fills up, give the server owner a firm kick in the butt and get them to either lower the number of player slots or invest in better hardware and connection.


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Goatblower
post Sep 24 2006, 11:46 PM
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Had a few people on again tonight

All I can really say is ...Melee sad.gif

Whatever people thought was wrong with melee before nothing compares to how poor it is with this beta.

I would gratefully accept the occasional random death every now and then just to be able to know that when I stab someone in the head from point blank that it will register.
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jackx
post Sep 25 2006, 09:19 AM
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For me, there's little difference - it doesn't register shit in .17, and certainly not where I aim at, and it hardly does in .18, either. .17 only feels "better" because the target area is so much larger and you can literally kill someone by aiming half a screen away from them.

I believe the serverside movementspeed-based damage calculation gets in the way of proper prediction, totally not sure though.


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Goatblower
post Sep 25 2006, 11:04 AM
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........and the jaeger weapon switch crash seems to be fixed but he still comes up with the wrong arm model
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gRanTeLbArT
post Sep 25 2006, 12:41 PM
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giving him a sabre with green sleeve caused a crash error for whatever reason, thats why its temporarily reverted back


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Sharpedge
post Sep 25 2006, 01:43 PM
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If it's any consolation I just had a bash at the Dark Messiah multiplayer open beta and it seems even a fully paid up software development company can't get melee right in Source. "Why is nobody playing as the knight?" I thought as I began to play. I quickly found out. You can barely hit with the regular fast swing let alone the hold-to-charge stance moves, so it's a game dominated by archers and bloody wizards. Thank goodness there weren't any of those in the AWI.

Anyway, my point is, how much accuracy can we reasonably expect from melee? When you factor in that most players learn quickly to strafe and 'dance' to make themselves harder to hit, then factor in lag, video lag, and a host of other factors I'm unaware of that are working in the background, it's a wonder that we garner any satisfaction from it.

I'd agree with Jackx in that it does seem easier to hit in 0.17 and exactly for the reason's he's given. There've been a few instances in 0.18 where I've been duelling away with someone for 10-15 secs or longer before someone manages a kill, which is something that very rarely happens in the current release. Don't get me wrong, though; I do think that reduced hitboxes are a step in the right direction.

Without knowing anything about the technical points at play here it's very difficult for me to offer a suggestion as to what can be done about it. I'm sure that faster stabbing/slashing speeds with reduced damage have already been suggested and they would probably only make things even more random. Are there any other elements of gameplay we could alter to counteract the limitations of the engine?
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gRanTeLbArT
post Sep 25 2006, 02:39 PM
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I do hit :O and that even with the butterknife


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Nathan Hale
post Sep 25 2006, 04:07 PM
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I still stand by experimenting with hit box sizes in the short run. Granted the 17 hit boxes are huge, but maybe a little extra would mitigate the 18 issues without being too invasive a fix. Sort of a compromise between 17 and the current 18. I'm of the opinion that melee is never going to be just right and that we should probably look for the best compromise of realism and playability we can find for the time being. If there are other, deeper fixes, then maybe they would be better in the long run. How hard is it to change the server-side damage speed stuff? That might need to be tweaked, but I'm not sure how invasive that would be to the game in general.

As for the arms: yeah the red arm worked, but for some reason the green didn't. I think the Frontiers gets an arm swap too though when the model comes in.

This post has been edited by Nathan Hale: Sep 25 2006, 04:10 PM


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jackx
post Sep 25 2006, 05:25 PM
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It's not the serverside damage. That has been removed, and melee still feels - inconsistant. Sometimes I score lots of hits by aiming right on target, sometimes by leading the target, and sometimes I don't hit at all using either method, making it impossible to figure out just what exactly the issue is - everytime I think I've finally found a way to hit reliably, I get some completely random results...
The larger hitboxes won't help remove the randomness from melee at all, as long as I can stab someone in the stomach or even the feet and get a HS and vice versa, increasing my overall likelyhood to just score a hit at all does not make melee any less of a random, skill-free clickfest.


The only melee weapon on Source that I am aware of that more or less hits reliably is the CS:S knife.
Maybe we should use that as a starting point, or, unless by divine inspiration (or Tjoppen's genius) we find another way to fix these issues, I see little choice for anything but for recoding melee from the ground up. xd


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Nathan Hale
post Sep 25 2006, 05:49 PM
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Yeah- thing is that the knife is the smallest departure from the regular line of modern weapons. What about the range of the weapons? Maybe the longer range in melee affects the hit accuracy and causes it to become more random? I think what we gotta do is to make a list of all differences between the weps and see if we can eliminate each difference as the source of the weirdness that plagues the bigger weps but isn't as strong on knife. Hell maybe it's the weapon itself and not the hits or server side.

Perhaps I'm being a heretic here but:
I wonder if in the absolute worst case scenario a temporary fix might be to do away with the varied damages for the melee and just give 50 pts for any melee hit with the bayonet, 34 for the sabre for the time being? The ranomness would still be there, but at least whether you got a head or an arm wouldn't make any difference if a hit is just a hit. It's a very short term fix, and it also assumes we can find a way to at least do away with "hits" that take place when you're not aiming at all, and "misses" when you're aiming right on. The difference of course being- all we have to do is get the basic body outline for hits correct and then devote more time to detailed body areas once we figure out what to do from there. Of course if we figure all this stuff out in the next few weeks, it's a moot suggestion.

This post has been edited by Nathan Hale: Sep 25 2006, 05:50 PM


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tomdon
post Sep 25 2006, 06:50 PM
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Tjop have you tried throwing the question out on some forums. See if anybody out there can come up with some ideas?
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Goatblower
post Sep 25 2006, 07:09 PM
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IMO you should just stick with the 0.17 melee until a solution can be found.

Yes there are issues with both 0.17 and 0.18 but out of the two 0.17 gives better gameplay.

Fair enough with 0.17 there are more hits than there should be but most players probably don't even notice that they registered a hit which shouldn't have happened, what they definately will notice is the way in 0.18 you cannot consistantly hit at point blank range.
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Nathan Hale
post Sep 25 2006, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE(Goatblower @ Sep 25 2006, 03:09 PM) [snapback]25414[/snapback]

IMO you should just stick with the 0.17 melee until a solution can be found.

Yes there are issues with both 0.17 and 0.18 but out of the two 0.17 gives better gameplay.

Fair enough with 0.17 there are more hits than there should be but most players probably don't even notice that they registered a hit which shouldn't have happened, what they definately will notice is the way in 0.18 you cannot consistantly hit at point blank range.



Yeah I agree- an extra hit now and then is better than totally missing when you're aimed dead-on.


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jackx
post Sep 25 2006, 09:30 PM
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Fun fact: The melee weapons have recoil. And no, it's not just graphical, like I always thought.
Luckily, Tjoppen could be convinced to remove that shit ASAP, melee needs to be pin-point accurate after all.

Hopefully this will resolve the melee issue at least somewhat


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Tjoppen
post Sep 26 2006, 11:15 AM
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The hirschfänger causing crashes might be related to the server not having the model(failed svn update?), since it works fine in local play.

QUOTE(tomdon @ Sep 25 2006, 06:50 PM) [snapback]25413[/snapback]

Tjop have you tried throwing the question out on some forums. See if anybody out there can come up with some ideas?

No I have not, but I might try that after I fiddle with it some more. Going to remove the pointless recoil for instance.
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Ginger_Lord
post Sep 29 2006, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE(Tjoppen @ Sep 26 2006, 12:15 PM) [snapback]25429[/snapback]

The hirschfänger causing crashes might be related to the server not having the model(failed svn update?), since it works fine in local play.


Could be a linux issue with capitlisation, if the model has a capital letter at the start, or anywhere in the filename and its not exactly referenced like that in the code it would crash online linux servers for sure and maybe windows ones too.
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tomdon
post Sep 29 2006, 07:07 PM
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Its a local crash not a server one I think.
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Flask
post Sep 29 2006, 09:26 PM
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Does anyone else feel that the reloading time for the Pennsylvania Long Rifle is now a wee bit too long in BG2 v0.18? The animation seems like it is in slow motion . . .
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jackx
post Sep 29 2006, 10:23 PM
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The animation is just the regular reload slowed down as of now, however, the long reloading times for the jaeger and pennsylvania rifles are intentional, to balance out their increased power and accuracy. For the same reason, you can't interrupt the reload on them any more, so that you actually feel the increased reload time.
Also note that the rifles now run faster than the regular infantry, which means that you no longer have to fight it out once they get close. Be a proper and historically accurate rifleman and just turn and run. wink.gif


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