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> Don't Flay Me Alive, A major suggestion
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Forlorn_Hope
post Jan 30 2011, 04:53 PM
Post #51


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Please be sure to post up an after-action report after testing. I'd love to be there for it, but unfortunately, my current location precludes any sort of BG2-ness.


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Nathan Hale
post Jan 30 2011, 06:06 PM
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I would participate in the test, if I'm around.


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LaBelle
post Jan 31 2011, 04:23 PM
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I just updated the rules to add one. Hopefully it doesn't add too much drama?
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Forlorn_Hope
post Jan 31 2011, 07:08 PM
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For those of us who didn't take the time to memorize the previous rules set, would you mind summarizing the changes so that people can easily discuss them?


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LaBelle
post Jan 31 2011, 10:52 PM
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I sure can! Changes in italics.

Old List(Which I have most played by):
[1] The Officer in Charge (OinC) must type '!S' into ingame chat to signify that his team is ready, and it is considered bad form to move out of the spawn before the enemy OinC has also called '!S'.

Stays the Same

[2] All formations used by either side must be close rank ie: all men shoulder-to-shoulder whilst engaging the enemy in formation.

I have changed this to allow loose formations of skirmishers, and a marksmen if the game/map allows.

[3]Crouching / ducking / kneeling is forbidden unless it is necessary to allow the rear rank to shoot over the heads of the kneeling front rank.

I made a slight change to this, allowing commanders to order their line to crouch.

[4] In the case that the OinC of either force is killed, he must cease to command immediately and a subordinate must take over.

No change.

[5] Whilst variations in tactics are absolutely encouraged within line battles, using natural innate objects to shield your men or a proportion of your men on the battlefield whilst giving fire at the enemy is disallowed.

I changed this to allow soldiers to use "soft cover." Soft cover is defined as anything that cannot stop a bullet, and/or only obscures the enemy's vision of you.

[6] If the order to charge is issued, the side which charges may spread out to an acceptable degree, but it is considered poor gamesmanship for the charging force to open fire at an enemy close order formation unless charging force is immediately prior to melee engagement.

No change as of yet.

[7] No formation may open fire until all of its members have come to a complete halt and are properly spaced in close order. However, battlefield stress must be taken into account in the event of minor breaches.

Changes in discussion

[8] Splitting your force is allowed, but only where doing so does not leave a group of less than 6 team members in a 'line'. Both 'sections' of your force must apply to all guidelines, and if casualties are taken to lower the number of a section to less than 5, it must join the other section before continuing the fight, unless it is engaged in melee.

Staying the same, so far. Rule is a bit different for skirmisher groups, where the minimum number is 3.

[9] Period tactics including the use of advanced techniques such as two rank lines are encouraged as the object of a line battle is not primarily to obliterate the enemy, but to re-enact as close as is feasible possible and to enjoy the experience.

I changed this. The object of a Realism is to have fun, above anything else. Who made up these rules, Geez.

[10] As a general guideline, if a tactic in use could be considered ungentlemanly; it is frowned upon within the battle. An example of this may be using hit and run guerilla-style tactics, or positioning yourself at the extremity of a map to prevent enemy movements onto a flank.

Absolutely changed. War isn't gentlemanly, so neither will a Realism. However, common sense things such as glitching and what not are frowned upon and are punished by immediate forfeiture.
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LaBelle
post Feb 3 2011, 08:32 PM
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What are your guy's opinions on the new Commander killing rule? I've heard that it'll ruin LB's, but I also hear that it really gives commanders something to think about when positioning a line. Thoughts?
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gRanTeLbArT
post Feb 3 2011, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (LaBelle @ Feb 3 2011, 09:32 PM) *
What are your guy's opinions on the new Commander killing rule? I've heard that it'll ruin LB's, but I also hear that it really gives commanders something to think about when positioning a line. Thoughts?


Where is it?


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Crippled_Fetus
post Feb 3 2011, 11:38 PM
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Killing commanders is seen as ungentlemanly, but it happens all the time anyway. No-one gets DQed for it now, so there's no point in changing it.
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Forlorn_Hope
post Feb 4 2011, 03:51 AM
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Honestly, I think the killing of commanders should be both allowed, and encouraged. If a unit doesn't have the discipline to have a smooth succession of command, then that is simply a flaw that they should rectify.


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LaBelle
post Feb 4 2011, 05:43 AM
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QUOTE (gRanTeLbArT @ Feb 3 2011, 10:52 PM) *
Where is it?



In the original post.

As for Fetus' comment(I meant to quote him, but I edited too quickly v_v), if it happens all the time then it SHOULD be changed. If there's a rule no one follows, then why have it? Now, I'm not saying "If no one follows a rule, make it so the rule doesn't exist," I'm simply implying we should make it so the commanders actively ensure they're own survival, as well as the line's since this DOES happen a lot. It's better than them just standing there and repeating one phrase every 7 seconds and waiting to be shot, and it adds in a variation of period tactics.

That's one thing I'm not understanding so far, Fetus. Don't take this personal, but you yourself quoted a rule set that "encourages usage of period tactics," but continuously find faults in ways I'm trying to implement them(i.e. Americans often shot commanders first, but you poo-poo the idea of that being encouraged in a Linebattle.) I'm beginning to think you'd rather stick to the old rule set simply as a way to ensure the 29th stays on top, and don't get me wrong, that's fine. But if this helps revitalize some part of BG2...wouldn't you rather the 29th be a part of that and risk the idea of suddenly losing ultra-dominance and entering into something more competitive, instead of fading away on top as the game dies?

Again, I must stress that none of this is a personal jab; it's a plea. If we all work together posting our thoughts and ideas on how we, the players, would create a better atmosphere, we could bring BG2 back into it's prime. It's not about revitalization of the game, it's about revitalization of the community. If we don't band together and lose these clan politics(and rivalries) that dominate this community, we're all doomed.

tl;dr version, it's 12:58 a.m. and I want to play BG2. I just don't want to be unable to play it three months from now.

This post has been edited by LaBelle: Feb 4 2011, 05:59 AM
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JoeSkylynx
post Feb 4 2011, 06:36 AM
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I would also like too put out a few things.


Retreating

This is one of the biggest, "why the fuck not?" type of things I've had happen to me as commander. That little situation where your whole line gets almost annihilated in the first volley(12 Man Line - 4 Men = 8 Men), and you can't make the decision to say, "fuck this were taking a cab on this, and finding a better position". I've been banned from two servers for giving an order stating, "Just get over to Hamburger Hill. No need for a line till I get there" I believe a full scale retreat to gain a better posistion without the needs of a line following the player should be allowed.


Ambushing

Worse than the last comment is how anal people get around ambushes. For example... On Strangeways you form up two lines, and use two 'false' rambos to bring the enemy over too your position, and open up on them with 10 musket balls. You know what happens when I do something like this? I get yelled at for not forming a solid/seeable line. The line could be the straightest thing in the world, and I could have them parael/perpendicular to each other, and I'll be called a terrible commander for one way lining them up. I believe ambushing is a reasonable tactic, and should be treated as such.


Charge = WW1 Line Charge


Oh yeah... This old rule which gets on my nerves. I order a charge, and tell my guys if they need to reload too get some form of cover, and reload, and everyone is to reload their weapons and use similar cover(strangeway road for example) I then order the charge to go into full swing, and were all slayed for using cover/reloading during a charge... What? I believe if the commander gives directional orders of how players should go about a charge should be allowed. Further more players should be allowed to use cover/reload during a charge for the sheer sake of the fact that the skirmishers generally do.



That's my 2 cents.


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LaBelle
post Feb 4 2011, 07:13 AM
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Good stuff, we'll see how they work during the test!
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Crippled_Fetus
post Feb 5 2011, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE
Honestly, I think the killing of commanders should be both allowed, and encouraged. If a unit doesn't have the discipline to have a smooth succession of command, then that is simply a flaw that they should rectify.


Well, the point truly is that commanders die every round no matter what the rule is. Encouraging it is another thing, it is a fact that a units leadership (Well....ideally) is led by the men with the most experience, so if you kill all the Col's Maj's Lt's (etc....) A line of Pte.'s will (for the most part) not succeed. The rule is in place more to keep the battles organized, not just digress into a bunch of skirmishers....oh wait...that's the point of this entire post....never mind, kill all the commanders.
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Crippled_Fetus
post Feb 5 2011, 07:12 PM
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Didn't read your post the time before La Belle, sorry for not responding sexy!

The point is, the game will die whether you add five people to a game play type or not....I don't understand how this is a saving grace. If someone could give me an ACTUAL way this is going to magically save the game ( oh yeah give me a flame point, I dare you ) I'd really like to know.

As for us winning all the time.....I'm not too scared that five dudes we killed in line are going to now beat us when the run up and down British spawn hill for fifteen minutes waiting to charge....That's not supposed to be as condescending as it reads, but fuck it, you all think I'm an ass anyway, might as well follow suit and be one. So have your skirmishers, and pretty please, beat us.

But if you cared to maybe not make this about fetus seeming like an asshole in front of the forums, and the rest of the community, and really about saving the game...maybe you would have noticed that I told other leaders that we would still play with them even if they used this rule set. That's known as compromise, it's the best way to settle disputes like this.

Anyway, see you in game! <3

This post has been edited by Crippled_Fetus: Feb 5 2011, 07:14 PM
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LaBelle
post Feb 6 2011, 01:58 AM
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I actually gave a couple of steps as to how this might in some small way make the game more enjoyable, but you may have missed that. Anyways, the point wasn't to try to make you look like an ass, I was just trying to clarify why exactly you just wanted to point out how this won't work, instead of offering a way 29th might make LB's interesting again. That was the initial point of this thread: Either like my idea, or think up something else. It wasn't to flame people's ideas, or think of ways why this might be against a certain person or clan.

In fact, knowing that you knew where I was coming from and that I had previously brought this up to you in person in front of your clan(Who all proceeded to jump on me like a cat on a fish about how this would work. In condescending tones, even,) and STILL taking offense to this is in a small way disappointing and re-affirming at the same time.
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Nathan Hale
post Feb 6 2011, 02:48 AM
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I think it's good to have some games still be the orthodox line battle style. I think a variety of gameplay actually makes BG more attractive because it offers more variety. Some people will like the new approach and some won't, but the beauty is with variety they'd all find a place to play.


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Crippled_Fetus
post Feb 6 2011, 05:34 AM
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QUOTE (Nathan Hale @ Feb 5 2011, 09:48 PM) *
I think it's good to have some games still be the orthodox line battle style. I think a variety of gameplay actually makes BG more attractive because it offers more variety. Some people will like the new approach and some won't, but the beauty is with variety they'd all find a place to play.


This is a constructive post, thank you Nathan. Honestly.
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Nathan Hale
post Feb 6 2011, 06:06 AM
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One thing that has worked in baseball over the years is to use a "home team" rule-- you play by the particular rule set of the league the home team is in. For example, if 29th played standard LB and 22nd played new style, you'd play the rules chosen by the "home team" whose server the game is in (or who is declared the "home team"). If you have a league or an agreement to alternate home and visitor, it would even out in the end.


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LaBelle
post Feb 7 2011, 09:44 PM
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The only problem with that is, if a clan is good at one thing, and sucks at another, they'll never want to play unless they host.
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mpc
post Feb 7 2011, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (LaBelle @ Jan 31 2011, 11:52 PM) *
[9] Period tactics including the use of advanced techniques such as two rank lines are encouraged as the object of a line battle is not primarily to obliterate the enemy, but to re-enact as close as is feasible possible and to enjoy the experience.

I changed this. The object of a Realism is to have fun, above anything else. Who made up these rules, Geez.



Our old leader:

-[TRR]- Col. Arquebusier now -[TRR]- Maj. Arquebusier made them 6-7 years ago, since he is a great fan of historical re enactment and we always did have some fun formations going on in each practice.


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LaBelle
post Feb 7 2011, 11:12 PM
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Oh I know, it was just a joke. :)
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LaBelle
post Mar 9 2011, 05:18 PM
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Bump, check out the new idea.
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LaBelle
post Mar 9 2011, 07:28 PM
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We tried out the new rule set today, with the help of 42CDO, 24th Rifles, and a lot of pubbers. It was a huge success.
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Black Watch
post Mar 9 2011, 10:26 PM
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Yep, just like that, linebattles on the 47th server will never be the same.
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joethepro36
post Mar 10 2011, 07:48 AM
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I enjoyed the new ruleset more than I thought I would. However, the skirmish line needs to be firmly controlled by an admin, as pubbers tend to jump into and leave at will or grab whatever class they wish. I found the pubbers to also be surprisingly cooperative with me in the skirmish line. I recommend that the skirmish line be made up of experienced players and to be hand picked by the skirmish line commander, as discipline and initiative is needed by them in equal measure.

I enjoyed how much it switched up the old format of a linebattle, with 20 or so players a side (like on my server ;) ) it could be amazing. The linebattle really needs to be 20 plus to allow the main line to stay powerful, when we had that crash for the majority of players, it was clear that the skirmishers were picking off everyone.

One recommendation to the rules is to not allow the sharpshooters, imo they were simply too accurate. I had 2 sharpshooters with me at all times and they got 3/4 of the skirmish line's kills and basically didn't miss against the enemy main line. In a wide open map, the melee weapons are less viable so it means the sharpshooter isn't that badly penalised by having a poor melee weapon.

I found within this new ruleset that the skirmish line (as expected) is best when it acts as a screen against the enemy main line and particularly the enemy skirmish line. If the main line and the skirmish line get too separated then you're almost certain to lose.
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