IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> My Tuppence Worth, garr
Spartacus
post Oct 29 2011, 11:38 AM
Post #26


Sergeant
***

Group: Members
Posts: 70
Joined: 12-December 09
Member No.: 13,787



I don't think that the good players are whining because other people became better, thats atleast not the scenario for me.

What I think is disturbing is that I never played as an Officer, or used the axe in 2.0, because I wasn't good at it at all. The timing was different from the bayonetting. But now, without any practice what so ever, I'm a lot better at Officer or with an axe than I ever was at infantry. And that's very wrong. I shouldn't be a lot better at one of these classes that I never played before, than with infrantry that I've played for years.

For me atleast, that means the learning curve hasn't been depleted, it's non existing for these classes.
I'm glad people feel they've became better, but if you look at it honestly, have they really? Their skill level hasn't increased. The only thing that has changed is that it's easier to kill with these classes.

I like the increased speeds for infantry, it goes faster and it's harder to kill now, since the timing has to be even better than before. But I think that's why so many people are upset. You make the infantry class harder by increasing the speed, while making the other classes easier.

I'd say keep the infantry as it is, but reduce the slashing time for the other classes to what it is, or maybe just increase it a bit. As I understand it the slashing time for these classes was 0ms, and now it's 100ms. Reduce it to maybe 25, so they're still better but not overpowered.

I feel that by reducing the damages of these classes is just going around the problem, and not going at it head strong. Games should be about skills, it should be hard to skill someone that's a lot better. I don't see what's so wrong about that. It should be easy to kill someone that's a lot worse. And it should be hard to kill someone that's equally good.

That's my tuppence worth.

This post has been edited by Spartacus: Oct 29 2011, 11:45 AM


--------------------
23:25 - Klifsnider: I'm a fighter and an athlete trapped inside a fat guy's body. All I have in life is food, and I refuse to give it up. Till something else comes along, I'll always look this way.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Im_So_Cool_Retar...
post Oct 31 2011, 12:09 AM
Post #27


Captain
******

Group: Members
Posts: 334
Joined: 16-September 06
Member No.: 5,184



QUOTE (BIKA @ Oct 28 2011, 09:43 PM) *
Just wanted to say, it's quite hilariously easy to use bayonet classes once you get even half-way used to it. The only problem is, there's a larger difference between using them in both NA/EU, low-high ping than there was before. Not really a problem to me, as I've played the majority of BG2 with 140-200 ping, but to most players it's probably astronomical, I would assume that's where a lot of complaints are coming from. e.g A player who could do "OK" before 2.1 in a server that's not from their own area (NA/EU) is probably just worthless in this version, until they get used to it.

On the same token, again, it kind of makes playing on a NA server, for me at least, at least twice as easy as before while playing against the average player. But, I do understand what they're saying. Some players you thought weren't good are now doing fine with a sabre or knife, so what? That's a good thing, people can play better than before instead of the top10 players in this mod steam-rolling the fuck out of any server they join, thus causing everyone to quit.

I find it somewhat a joke of a challenge, but a challenge all the same to kill these player who are using only sabre/knife/axe now, because you have to understand that this isn't 2.0 anymore, they are PROBABLY going to have a good chance at hitting you now, so it makes it more fun to dodge them, or just out-right kill them from dodging or a longer range, because they lack the experience.

And isn't is what we wanted, as far as a "learning curve" being depleted? Wasn't that the problem before, new players never had a chance to do well or even compete with a more experienced player? I think it's good that your average joethelow or Goldfish can find some amount of success in melee'ing with more weapons now.

Let's be honest here. I want someone to tell me that using the knife/sabre/axe in version 2.0 wasn't either a waste of time or a risk. You were better off using soldier/infantry. I think this is more of a "omg, I can't go pwn a whole team of 15 as easy anymore, I might get shot or a lucky sabre/knife will kill me, waaa waaa!" Get over that.


I can't truly comment on the troubles a player might face playing on a server in a different continent as I don't frequent those servers.

It's not a case of players doing "fine". It's a case of those players being ABLE to kill high-quality players without an understanding of what they are doing. The top10 players still steam-roll servers, albeit with a different class.

My argument is that the bayonet is not on par with any other weapon. Every match I've played in, I've still dropped the most damage with infantry, but could guarantee double that with the knife.

Whoever asked for the learning curve to be eradicated? The only reason I can remember for newer players not being able to compete with a more experienced player, was that they were being swallowed by these huge number clans and not being exposed to the melee aspect of the mod.

With regards to your last point, the sabre definitely wasn't a risk as it was used effectively by many players. I don't know if it was only me who used the knife in matchs in 2.0, but personally I found it quite effective and enjoyed the challenge.

I suppose the difference is I appreciate a challenge from an opponent who has talent opposed to one who's had that talent bestowed upon them.



I think this is more of a "omg, I can't go pwn a whole team of 15 as easy anymore, I might get shot or a lucky sabre/knife will kill me, waaa waaa!" Get over that. ...Really?


--------------------
7:28 PM - brnc: you are the best
7:28 PM - brnc: im second


1:27 PM - brnc: what the fuck are they talking about?
1:27 PM - we're all made of bubbles: man wtf are they talking about
1:27 PM - we're all made of bubbles: lol
1:27 PM - brnc: HAHA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sigge22
post Oct 31 2011, 01:23 AM
Post #28


Private
*

Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 15-August 10
Member No.: 14,225



One thing came to my mind playing 2.1 today. It has nothing to do with melee or hit registration. I'm not even sure the BG2 team has any way of doing anything about it, since these might just be problems in the engine.

It's about the overall lagginess, or should I say glitchiness in the game. I'm not talking about lag as in high ping, or running the game on a low-end computer. I'm talking about choppiness, and nasty movement issues in general. I can think of three incidents to clarify what I'm talking about.

  • When you're in direct contact with a wall, a rock, anything solid in the map, you get that annoying glitching. It irritates me, looks ugly, and just makes the game less smooth. Also has some negative impact on melee combat, which I'll talk about next.
  • When meleeing, it's likely to walk against the enemy. For example you stab him and miss. He does the same, and you're both still running against each other, and you collide. This seems to fuck up the whole moment, with lot of choppiness and sometimes the other players model might be 'thrown' around by the game half a meter or so. I'm not using very good terms here, but I hope someone gets the point. Again it comes down to less smoothness that bothers me.
  • Sometimes when you turn up the ironsights, they either don't come up, or they come up half a second later. This happens regardless of my ping. I don't feel like using the ironsights as much, because I've learned that it might not work smoothly and as it should.


Back when the first version of BG2 was out, I remember laitsu saying it feels like "running in glue". That's exactly how I felt then, and at times I still feel like that with the new version. If the mod could run smoother, it would be so much more enjoyable. I know I'm overusing the word smooth here, but I hope it helps to clarify my point.

This post has been edited by sigge22: Oct 31 2011, 01:24 AM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
oo7
post Nov 1 2011, 01:30 PM
Post #29


Self proclaimecd grandmaster of the universe
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 146
Joined: 10-May 05
From: England
Member No.: 3,480



id like to point out that due to the increase in speed, it is much easier to glitch on maps in places where you could not glitch in 2.2.0, for example in maricopa there are now a whole load of walls the player can slide up whereas before the movement speed would not allow it

obviously id never partake in such downright scandalous tactics myself

bg needs a whole lot of new invisible walls
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klifsnider
post Nov 1 2011, 01:38 PM
Post #30


Major
Group Icon

Group: BG Dev. Team
Posts: 537
Joined: 26-October 08
Member No.: 7,408



Hey turbine I heard you found a bug on trenton, I didn't really get where you found it though, could you explain it a bit please?


--------------------
Collected awards in BGU matches:
>Most Annoying Playstyle
>Lamest Killstealer
>Best Spectator

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
oo7
post Nov 1 2011, 05:11 PM
Post #31


Self proclaimecd grandmaster of the universe
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 146
Joined: 10-May 05
From: England
Member No.: 3,480



aye, its very difficult and only a true bug master can accomplice the task, i will make a demo and pm you the link so you can see for yourself

This post has been edited by oo7: Nov 1 2011, 05:11 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tjoppen
post Nov 1 2011, 08:46 PM
Post #32


Major
Group Icon

Group: Team Leader
Posts: 994
Joined: 11-May 03
Member No.: 1,207



QUOTE (sigge22 @ Oct 31 2011, 02:23 AM) *
* When you're in direct contact with a wall, a rock, anything solid in the map, you get that annoying glitching. It irritates me, looks ugly, and just makes the game less smooth. Also has some negative impact on melee combat, which I'll talk about next.

I've noticed this as well, for quite some time. It seems like a trivial case that the engine should be able to handle just fine, considering the other entity is static. Geometry does not have this problem.
QUOTE
* When meleeing, it's likely to walk against the enemy. For example you stab him and miss. He does the same, and you're both still running against each other, and you collide. This seems to fuck up the whole moment, with lot of choppiness and sometimes the other players model might be 'thrown' around by the game half a meter or so. I'm not using very good terms here, but I hope someone gets the point. Again it comes down to less smoothness that bothers me.

This is a fifth-dimensional sort of problem. Both of you have different ideas of what the timeline looks like locally from the last time the server sent an entity update out to the both of you. Remember that your client can't know what buttons your enemies are pressing - everything gets extrapolated until the next update from the server (and history revised accordingly - sort of). With the close range and melee dancing that happens in BG2 this naturally leads to problems..
QUOTE
* Sometimes when you turn up the ironsights, they either don't come up, or they come up half a second later. This happens regardless of my ping. I don't feel like using the ironsights as much, because I've learned that it might not work smoothly and as it should.

This could probably be improved I think. At the moment the client can't figure out when it is able to engage the sights I think, and waits for the server (at which point the sights pop into place).
QUOTE
Back when the first version of BG2 was out, I remember laitsu saying it feels like "running in glue". That's exactly how I felt then, and at times I still feel like that with the new version. If the mod could run smoother, it would be so much more enjoyable. I know I'm overusing the word smooth here, but I hope it helps to clarify my point.

What, back in 0.0.1? In that case I'd chalk it up to the engine (ugh).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sigge22
post Nov 1 2011, 09:52 PM
Post #33


Private
*

Group: Members
Posts: 22
Joined: 15-August 10
Member No.: 14,225



QUOTE (Tjoppen @ Nov 1 2011, 08:46 PM) *
QUOTE
Back when the first version of BG2 was out, I remember laitsu saying it feels like "running in glue". That's exactly how I felt then, and at times I still feel like that with the new version. If the mod could run smoother, it would be so much more enjoyable. I know I'm overusing the word smooth here, but I hope it helps to clarify my point.

What, back in 0.0.1? In that case I'd chalk it up to the engine (ugh).


I'm not sure. It might have even been a later version of BG2 now that I think of it. Could've been one of those beta testing cases in the SVN thing, and I think it was like a big update were were testing on. This was in around 2007-2008. It's unimportant though, because I do see a huge improvement from those times. It doesn't feel like running in glue anymore really, even though I said so earlier. I'm just lacking the words to describe my experience, really. Still, in my experience the game runs smoother with each update, might just be placebo though.

QUOTE (Tjoppen @ Nov 1 2011, 08:46 PM) *
This is a fifth-dimensional sort of problem. Both of you have different ideas of what the timeline looks like locally from the last time the server sent an entity update out to the both of you. Remember that your client can't know what buttons your enemies are pressing - everything gets extrapolated until the next update from the server (and history revised accordingly - sort of). With the close range and melee dancing that happens in BG2 this naturally leads to problems..


Are there any improvements on my end I can do to avoid this?

This post has been edited by sigge22: Nov 1 2011, 09:55 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tjoppen
post Nov 2 2011, 07:58 PM
Post #34


Major
Group Icon

Group: Team Leader
Posts: 994
Joined: 11-May 03
Member No.: 1,207



QUOTE (sigge22 @ Nov 1 2011, 10:52 PM) *
QUOTE (Tjoppen @ Nov 1 2011, 08:46 PM) *
This is a fifth-dimensional sort of problem. Both of you have different ideas of what the timeline looks like locally from the last time the server sent an entity update out to the both of you. Remember that your client can't know what buttons your enemies are pressing - everything gets extrapolated until the next update from the server (and history revised accordingly - sort of). With the close range and melee dancing that happens in BG2 this naturally leads to problems..


Are there any improvements on my end I can do to avoid this?

You can mess around with the client lag compensation cvars. See http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/So...ayer_Networking - tweaking cl_interp is likely to give the best results.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gRanTeLbArT
post Nov 3 2011, 06:26 PM
Post #35


aaaaaa | TRR scream team
Group Icon

Group: Retired Team Members
Posts: 5,281
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 3,115



Or cl_interp_ratio.


--------------------
The Elders have foreseen victory this day!
Member of the TRR scream team.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Andy011
post Nov 4 2011, 07:18 AM
Post #36


Private
*

Group: Members
Posts: 11
Joined: 4-April 11
Member No.: 14,774



QUOTE (Im_So_Cool_Retart @ Oct 30 2011, 07:09 PM) *
I think this is more of a "omg, I can't go pwn a whole team of 15 as easy anymore, I might get shot or a lucky sabre/knife will kill me, waaa waaa!" Get over that. ...Really?


Sabre? Knife? Lucky? Heh... yeah right. I don't know what game you're playing, but last time I checked, in 2.1, sabres (and yes, even knives) overpower the bayonet. Period.

Back in 1.5, the officer was fine. He'd be a bit annoying to kill in the right hands, but he was nowhere near as overpowered as in 2.0. And what do we get in 2.1? An overoverpowered one.

If you're going to overpower one aspect of a class, it's only sensible to handicap another aspect to compensate. There's a reason as to why you'll never see a 300HP Scout head on against a 300HP Heavy. While this example might be a bit over the top, it's there so you can see my point.

There, there's my tuppence worth.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gRanTeLbArT
post Nov 4 2011, 05:48 PM
Post #37


aaaaaa | TRR scream team
Group Icon

Group: Retired Team Members
Posts: 5,281
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 3,115



The officer didn't change at all from 1.5 to 2.0 (except for pistol damage perhaps?).


Also, I will kill any officer wannabee 1vs1 as much as I please with the brown bess bayonet. The problem is that a lot of situations are not 1vs1 or there is terrain, and it's far easier to adapt to this as the swing classes.


--------------------
The Elders have foreseen victory this day!
Member of the TRR scream team.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
oo7
post Nov 4 2011, 06:06 PM
Post #38


Self proclaimecd grandmaster of the universe
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 146
Joined: 10-May 05
From: England
Member No.: 3,480



haha sure
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gRanTeLbArT
post Nov 4 2011, 06:09 PM
Post #39


aaaaaa | TRR scream team
Group Icon

Group: Retired Team Members
Posts: 5,281
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 3,115



QUOTE (oo7 @ Nov 4 2011, 07:06 PM) *
haha sure


said wannabee, not those people that are really good at it such as you or kipi


--------------------
The Elders have foreseen victory this day!
Member of the TRR scream team.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
oo7
post Nov 4 2011, 06:14 PM
Post #40


Self proclaimecd grandmaster of the universe
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 146
Joined: 10-May 05
From: England
Member No.: 3,480



yeh i thought it was a grey area but what the hell, pls check my post for map bugs
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gRanTeLbArT
post Nov 4 2011, 06:23 PM
Post #41


aaaaaa | TRR scream team
Group Icon

Group: Retired Team Members
Posts: 5,281
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 3,115



QUOTE (oo7 @ Nov 4 2011, 07:14 PM) *
yeh i thought it was a grey area but what the hell, pls check my post for map bugs


I got the file you uploaded and I checked out some of the screenshots, I will take care of the problems for the next patch or version that we roll out. If we do server-side patches like SP1 again, the maps can't be updated however.


--------------------
The Elders have foreseen victory this day!
Member of the TRR scream team.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Im_So_Cool_Retar...
post Nov 5 2011, 11:34 AM
Post #42


Captain
******

Group: Members
Posts: 334
Joined: 16-September 06
Member No.: 5,184



grantel, 1v1 is fine.

Anything other than that is not.

I dropped circa 20k with the axe in ambush the other day in 20 mins. That's not right.


--------------------
7:28 PM - brnc: you are the best
7:28 PM - brnc: im second


1:27 PM - brnc: what the fuck are they talking about?
1:27 PM - we're all made of bubbles: man wtf are they talking about
1:27 PM - we're all made of bubbles: lol
1:27 PM - brnc: HAHA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nathan Hale
post Nov 5 2011, 03:20 PM
Post #43


Original BG First Release Player
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 2,778
Joined: 24-September 02
From: The 13 Colonies
Member No.: 124



These comments, as well as some stuff in-game we've heard, are not being ignored. We're messing with a melee tweak in SVN to try and iron out a better balance. I agree that a little re-balance is needed, though we're not going all the way back to 2.0 where the other classes were marginalized.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
irish_thomas
post Nov 6 2011, 09:41 AM
Post #44


why?
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 214
Joined: 3-September 10
From: Ireland
Member No.: 14,246



arrange a weekly test and change the classes around a bit then maybe?

This post has been edited by irish_thomas: Nov 6 2011, 09:41 AM


--------------------
{22nd}Gen.Killeruk: i like 69th
{22nd}Gen.Killeruk: i just dont like port,irish and metal
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nathan Hale
post Nov 7 2011, 09:40 PM
Post #45


Original BG First Release Player
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 2,778
Joined: 24-September 02
From: The 13 Colonies
Member No.: 124



After much looking, Tjoppen has found a bug in the bayonet code. Apparently the game over-rode the settings for bayonet trace time that were supposed to be used, and instead imposed trace time "0" on it. The result is that bayonets will not hit, unless a pretty much perfect hit is recorded. There is no "bullshit" space with hitting like there is with slashing weapons. It seems those who claimed there was a bayonet bug were right in the end. The result is that the offending code has been fixed in the SVN and we plan on fixing this up and patching 2.1 as soon as we can do so. The inability to hit with bayonet should be regarded as a true bug as this point.

Tjoppen has also added temporary console commands to change the bayonet trace time. This means that you can actually modify the melee experience in your console in the SVN. We plan on using this to test different values and get a balanced melee experienced nailed down. Those of you who want to test should update SVN and start playing around with melee values to get it to feel right. Suggest your testing values on the forum here and we'll see what works best. The best value will make it into the patch.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Im_So_Cool_Retar...
post Nov 7 2011, 11:45 PM
Post #46


Captain
******

Group: Members
Posts: 334
Joined: 16-September 06
Member No.: 5,184



Will be pretty interesting to see what the changes will make.

I for one kinda like the "perfect hit" aspect - I don't think that's the problem. The problem for me is that the slashing classes are overpowered - let's see if this changes that to make things slightly more equal.

Is there something in the code that makes the bayonet trace time longer if you don't release attack2?


--------------------
7:28 PM - brnc: you are the best
7:28 PM - brnc: im second


1:27 PM - brnc: what the fuck are they talking about?
1:27 PM - we're all made of bubbles: man wtf are they talking about
1:27 PM - we're all made of bubbles: lol
1:27 PM - brnc: HAHA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nathan Hale
post Nov 7 2011, 11:56 PM
Post #47


Original BG First Release Player
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 2,778
Joined: 24-September 02
From: The 13 Colonies
Member No.: 124



The plan at this point is to stick with the toned down slashing weapons that are in the SVN already and to bring the bayonet time to balance with them. That keeps the number of variables down.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
gRanTeLbArT
post Nov 8 2011, 02:23 PM
Post #48


aaaaaa | TRR scream team
Group Icon

Group: Retired Team Members
Posts: 5,281
Joined: 9-October 04
Member No.: 3,115



The bayonet hit detection was quite a bit worse with the perfect hit thing - people dancing around each other and both not hitting a thing wasn't that uncommon in 2.1. We will restore the bayonet hit detection of 2.0 and see from there if there is anything left we need to balance. I think restoring the bayonet will be all we need to change to melee.

Don't forget - the slashing weapons do not have to make perfect hits at all with their swing time, 0.1s for head hits and additional time beyond for anything else. This is a huge edge over perfect hit only. This current system of trying to register hits over a certain short amount of time was the counter to bad hit detection in bg2 compared to bg1. I think it came with 1.2b or 1.0b, and it was considered a huge improvement. I think the 2.1 problems just shows how true that is. Some people were instantly thinking something was wrong.


--------------------
The Elders have foreseen victory this day!
Member of the TRR scream team.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Alpha
post Nov 8 2011, 04:37 PM
Post #49


Corporal
**

Group: Members
Posts: 46
Joined: 8-September 11
From: Here and there
Member No.: 14,910



Good news about the bayonets , will be interesting to see if the slashing weapons are actually overpowerd compared to normal bayonets and not bugged ones
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Bone Collect...
post Nov 13 2011, 12:17 PM
Post #50


Private
*

Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 3-October 04
Member No.: 3,101



I would like to share my views.

The Sabre needs to have a shorter reach, ditto the butter knife (which should be the fastest, close-in, melee weapon).

the Axe could do with a slower swing as it is a heavier weapon (Mount & Blade style).

The delay in firing is hardly noticable - you could make it 50ms longer to slightly reduce the effectiveness of point blankers.

Thanks BG Devs.

Keep up the good work.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th August 2019 - 09:49 PM