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James Asner
I've been hearing from public players and noticing in their actions that maybe other servers don't linebattle according to TRR rules. Maybe you don't make the players adhere to strict formation or address gaps in the lines EVERY round. Maybe they can skirmish with however many players they want. Maybe they can even reload in charges and ignore various other rules. I won't pretend to know how other servers run linebattles for the public but if you don't run them according to TRR rules then that's not a linebattle.

I don't want to lecture anyone but we use those rules to make linebattle matches fair and fun for both sides and not frustrating. 29th server has it's own rules like no public commanders and strict limit on weapon choice. It doesn't bother anyone if you don't do the same. It does bother me when a player kills a commander or rambos, ghosts or ignores a command and fires outside a volley. Again, I don't know who's doing it but it needs to stop. Linebattle has been a tradition that dates back to LONG before these new clans ever heard of the game. It's been popular and has done just fine with the rules available and messing with that formula is only going to fuck things up.

So, if you don't know the rules or need a refresher I would be more than happy to help anyone or any clan with an in-game training. I enjoy linebattling too much to see it turned into something lazy and disorganized.
Forlorn_Hope
I'm going to chip in my half a cent:

As far as TRR line battling rules go, I founded the clan with Arquebusier a long, long time ago. (I don't even remember when that happened now.) But that was back in the day when it was a training unit for the Kings Royal Rifles and the Company of Select Marksmen, which means it was back in BG1. Keep in mind, that there are some new elements in BG2 that simply weren't a consideration then. There weren't weapons to choose from amongst the classes, and there were only three classes. It didn't make sense to allow for riflemen in the ranks.

What I'm getting at is that the TRR rules shouldn't be the be all and end all, simply because they're the oldest. As the game changes, rules SHOULD be updated.

Now, that being said: Any server running a line battle really must have an admin overseeing it. This is something we learned years ago, and I think may have been forgotten over time. If a server doesn't have an admin, it is wisest to simply revert back to a skirmish map or an LMS map. Simply put, a line battle is an organized event, and needs to be treated as such, with someone overseeing it. Whether that means having more admins or less line battles is obviously up to the server owners.

These are simply my thoughts on the matter, though they are thoughts gathered from years of experience.
klifsnider
I've been hearing from public players and noticing in their actions that maybe other servers don't skirmish according to BGU rules. Maybe you don't make the players adhere to strict tactics or capping the flags EVERY round. Maybe they can have as many officers as they want. Maybe they can even use buckshot and ignore various other rules. I won't pretend to know how other servers run skirmishes for the public but if you don't run them according to BGU rules then that's not a skirmish.

I don't want to lecture anyone but we use those rules to make skirmish matches fair and fun for both sides and not frustrating. 29th server has it's own rules like no commanders and strict limit on weapon choice. It doesn't bother anyone if you don't do the same. It does bother me when a player doesn't block a fullcap, ghosts or doesn't stick to the tactic. Again, I don't know who's doing it but it needs to stop. Skirmish has been a tradition that dates back to LONG before these new clans ever heard of the game. It's been popular and has done just fine with the rules available and messing with that formula is only going to fuck things up.

So, if you don't know the rules or need a refresher I would be more than happy to help anyone or any clan with an in-game training. I enjoy skirmishing too much to see it turned into something lazy and disorganized.
Idol_analord
I have something for u. fuck all your 24/7 linebattle 16 tick bullshit servers and let the people play the game how they want and enjoy it.
mpc
I have to agree that the TRR rules which Arquebusier + others made tons of years ago have not been edited within our clan during the last few new versions of BG2, the simple reason of it really I guess is we have not had time to look at it or we still like how they are. We have however done some changes which have not yet been written down. For instance since the introduction of the new weapons and ironsight, we have (obviously) added (which probably every other clan has added 2) that the commanders choose which weapon we shall use for each team, and that we shall use ironsight while aiming.

Also, not that many of the LB clans nowadays use our rules really. I only know that 47th use our rules (atleast Hawke told me they did when I asked him once). The rest I think uses the rule set which was made for the old LB league by Livgarden. Both rules are basically the same, except for something to do with TRR only allow platoons down to 5 numbers, while they allow it down to 3, and something to do with skirmishing after you are down to three numbers. Something we do not like using (which is why TRR always stand in line until we are all dead or given the order to charge).

Also a lot of the rules we have set are never in use anymore because its too formal or old fashioned. For instance, in the old days (and it is still written in the rules) that all teams had to write: '!S' in chat to tell the other team they are ready to begin the LB, nowadays when the round starts, the LB starts.


Here's the complete list: List of TRR's LB Rules
gRanTeLbArT
QUOTE (Idol_analord @ Apr 25 2011, 02:54 PM) *
I have something for u. fuck all your 24/7 linebattle 16 tick bullshit servers and let the people play the game how they want and enjoy it.


In fact, you can still do that once in a while. Many "skirmish" players just complain instead of checking the server list and joining games. It's not fair to keep complaining and shouting about LB servers until you've got foam on your mouth without even checking back with the reality. I haven't really seen you play actively on public servers. So if you don't actually play the game I will ask you politely to shut up.

QUOTE (klifsnider @ Apr 25 2011, 02:50 PM) *
I've been hearing from public players and noticing in their actions that maybe other servers don't skirmish according to BGU rules. Maybe you don't make the players adhere to strict tactics or capping the flags EVERY round. Maybe they can have as many officers as they want. Maybe they can even use buckshot and ignore various other rules. I won't pretend to know how other servers run skirmishes for the public but if you don't run them according to BGU rules then that's not a skirmish.

I don't want to lecture anyone but we use those rules to make skirmish matches fair and fun for both sides and not frustrating. 29th server has it's own rules like no commanders and strict limit on weapon choice. It doesn't bother anyone if you don't do the same. It does bother me when a player doesn't block a fullcap, ghosts or doesn't stick to the tactic. Again, I don't know who's doing it but it needs to stop. Skirmish has been a tradition that dates back to LONG before these new clans ever heard of the game. It's been popular and has done just fine with the rules available and messing with that formula is only going to fuck things up.

So, if you don't know the rules or need a refresher I would be more than happy to help anyone or any clan with an in-game training. I enjoy skirmishing too much to see it turned into something lazy and disorganized.


very funny..

The thing is, unlike skirmishing, line battling isn't nearly as arbitrary. There is a certain form that should be stuck to. I understand asner's concern. I'd add however that is natural that some people won't fire in volleys, and rather order to fire at will, or that some people in the line simply miss it.

Popular things like LB usually degrade. The masses always need a more simple and accessible thing to do. However, since LBs are always organized by clans, those clans should do their best to keep up a higher standard. Once people learn to play it without the proper rules, it will be much harder to enforce the high standards for the clans that still do.
klifsnider
I have nothing against LBs, I have something against people with 0 skill saying they will train other clans. xD
Codename:V
Are you for real dude? This topic is a joke. You can't tell someone how to run rules on their server whether it's linebattle or skirmish. This isn't a linebattle game so you can't expect public servers to have a standard of rules running on every server at all times. People buy servers to do what they want with them and set their own rules. That's like me asking that all non linebattle servers run the bgu config on every map. If you're playing public, then it's always going to be different. That will never change. Forlorn basically said everything right. Without admin spectators/commanders, nothing will ever run properly.
Nathan Hale
You guys are free to play by what rules you will, but I will add that a certain variety of weapons in use is historically acceptable. Battles in the Revolution often involved a variety of muskets, both old and new, in use by various units. If you want to get down to really detailed history levels where you recreate a particular unit on a particular date in a particular place of action, then you'd be dealing with the issue of using a certain weapon set based on historical records. That's doable, but pretty narrow in terms of the scope you're looking at. I tend to think the variety of weapons (mainly different war muskets) you see in an LB where people just pick is actually somewhat representative of the variety and chaos of different weapons that would appear on an 18th century battlefield in a colonial setting.

gRanTeLbArT
QUOTE (Nathan Hale @ Apr 25 2011, 04:24 PM) *
You guys are free to play by what rules you will, but I will add that a certain variety of weapons in use is historically acceptable. Battles in the Revolution often involved a variety of muskets, both old and new, in use by various units. If you want to get down to really detailed history levels where you recreate a particular unit on a particular date in a particular place of action, then you'd be dealing with the issue of using a certain weapon set based on historical records. That's doable, but pretty narrow in terms of the scope you're looking at. I tend to think the variety of weapons (mainly different war muskets) you see in an LB where people just pick is actually somewhat representative of the variety and chaos of different weapons that would appear on an 18th century battlefield in a colonial setting.


The british units would of course be expected to be more uniform/maybe even completely uniform in the weapon that they are fielding. But you couldn't expect the same from the americans.
James Asner
QUOTE (Nathan Hale)
If you want to get down to really detailed history levels where you recreate a particular unit on a particular date in a particular place of action, then you'd be dealing with the issue of using a certain weapon set based on historical records.

I get it but this doesn't have anything to do with public linebattles. Special events and fort battles maybe.

QUOTE (Forlone Hope)
What I'm getting at is that the TRR rules shouldn't be the be all and end all, simply because they're the oldest. As the game changes, rules SHOULD be updated.

I'm not saying we use them because they're the oldest. I clearly said that because they WORK and work well that TRR rules are the ones to use.

QUOTE (Codename:V)
Are you for real dude? This topic is a joke. You can't tell someone how to run rules on their server whether it's linebattle or skirmish.

No, I can't. I can tell you that linebattling belongs to the community and if you go on strangways and do whatever the hell you want, don't call it linebattling.

QUOTE (Codename:V)
This isn't a linebattle game so you can't expect public servers to have a standard of rules running on every server at all times.

No it's not. It's not a game about deathruns. It's not a game about stealing flags. It's not a game about team deathmatch while standing on glass. It wasn't about fort battles. It wasn't about ANYTHING until someone decided to build that map and invent that game. The only difference is it's organized. We aren't even talking about the big stuff here or even the league rules. Fire in a volley, don't shoot commanders, address gaps and skirmish on the right number.

QUOTE (Klifsnider)
I've been hearing from public players and noticing in their actions that maybe other servers don't skirmish according to BGU rules.

Klif you are so reactionary. You don't care about this. Why are you here?

QUOTE (gRanTeLbArT)
The thing is, unlike skirmishing, line battling isn't nearly as arbitrary. There is a certain form that should be stuck to. I understand asner's concern. I'd add however that is natural that some people won't fire in volleys, and rather order to fire at will, or that some people in the line simply miss it.

Popular things like LB usually degrade. The masses always need a more simple and accessible thing to do. However, since LBs are always organized by clans, those clans should do their best to keep up a higher standard. Once people learn to play it without the proper rules, it will be much harder to enforce the high standards for the clans that still do.

Well put.

If people want to revisit the rules I'd consider that and pass it along to the CO's but I don't see anything that needs fixing.
klifsnider
Oh, Jemes... When will you learn that videogames are not all about power, influence or control over other people?

P.S. My influence in bg2 > yours

LOL
Ad-Man
Actually todays "linebattles" are nothing like a real linebattle which takes place on the map "bg_linebattle" in BG1. All this follow the leader nonsense is ridiculous.
James Asner
QUOTE (klifsnider @ Apr 25 2011, 02:12 PM) *
Oh, Jemes... When will you learn that videogames are not all about power, influence or control over other people?

P.S. My influence in bg2 > yours

LOL

The rest of us are here to discuss linebattles and you're here to measure your dick? I still don't see your interest in this thread.
klifsnider
Hehe, you're not here to discuss linebattles. You're here to tell other server owners what to do.
Im_So_Cool_Retart
Agree with that c*nt Codename... don't tell anyone how to run their server.

Jame Asner - who are you?

This game has ALWAYS been about skirmishing. Don't preach your nonsense here, dictator.
gRanTeLbArT
QUOTE (Im_So_Cool_Retart @ Apr 25 2011, 09:57 PM) *
Agree with that c*nt Codename... don't tell anyone how to run their server.

Jame Asner - who are you?

This game has ALWAYS been about skirmishing. Don't preach your nonsense here, dictator.


He is just saying that people who run linebattles should try to enforce line battle rules - whether or not his version of said rules is always applicable to casual public LBs is maybe something you could discuss with him. If you don't run line battles on your server, you don't need to be feel adressed by his post. But, of course you can state your opinion.
LaBelle
This topic is so pathetic I don't even know where to begin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cAiwq8Cxo0

Oh yeah. That's where. No, this isn't anti-TRR. It's anti-TRR dick sucking.
Macs899
The only TRR rule i demand that all clans adhere to is : "Always listen to 80s music during linebattles". Also, labelle, you handsome devil ;D
Forlorn_Hope
Again, it comes down to either more admins or less line battles. You can't expect the public community to be self-regulating.
LaBelle
QUOTE (Macs899 @ Apr 26 2011, 01:16 AM) *
The only TRR rule i demand that all clans adhere to is : "Always listen to 80s music during linebattles". Also, labelle, you handsome devil ;D



Rule will be upheld. I call Def Leppard. Also, OH YOU ;)
James Asner
QUOTE (LaBelle @ Apr 25 2011, 07:44 PM) *
This topic is so pathetic I don't even know where to begin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cAiwq8Cxo0

Oh yeah. That's where. No, this isn't anti-TRR. It's anti-TRR dick sucking.

Love it. Honored, really. One thing though. I don't have the tank and soldier dolls scattered around my desk. I have HL2 plushies. I'm a Valve-fag not a WW2 fag.
LaBelle
Those soldiers happen to be Todd MacFarlane Soldiers from the modern time period >: And those tanks...wait. You never played with toy soldiers as a kid?

The Hell, man? Your topic SUCKS.
James Asner
QUOTE (LaBelle @ Apr 25 2011, 09:01 PM) *
Those soldiers happen to be Todd MacFarlane Soldiers from the modern time period >: And those tanks...wait. You never played with toy soldiers as a kid?

GI joes and ninja turtles
QUOTE (LaBelle @ Apr 25 2011, 09:01 PM) *
The Hell, man? Your topic SUCKS.

It's generated a lot of chat and most people have setup camp in this thread. My favorite is Klif defending 12 year old admins playing a game mode he HATES. Keep spending that capital, buddy!
LaBelle
Woah now buddy, your generalization of the BG2 community continues to grow. Verily, thou hast defined thyself as a douchebag of the most highest Order. I knight thee, Sir Asner, Knight of the Arsehole Committee.

But for serials, calling all admins who let pubbers play by different(In your terms, "non-properized and such") "12 year olds" is silly. I created a different LB rule set, it was tried and well received. You don't see me pushing it on people in other servers. Sure, I set one up in my own server from time to time, but you don't see me acting all high and mighty on these here forums, just because I play by the TRR ruleset.

Simply put, it's not your place to tell people they need to adhere to one ruleset, as dated and desperate for an upgrade as it is. It's not my place either. So suck it up, sit the fuck down, play the game. Buy your own server, regulate it as you see fit. Leave the others alone.
Codename:V
Line up
Pollux
linebattle on townguard... the circle is complete.
LaBelle
QUOTE (Pollux @ Apr 26 2011, 02:36 AM) *
linebattle on townguard... the circle is complete.


Linebattling on Harbourtown ROCKS.
Pollux
how about a mixed linebattle.

Two lines - both have alternating American and British players.
We can skirmish and linebattle at the same time, and now i've fixed the community. Thanks, you're welcome
LaBelle
QUOTE (Pollux @ Apr 26 2011, 02:41 AM) *
how about a mixed linebattle.

Two lines - both have alternating American and British players.
We can skirmish and linebattle at the same time, and now i've fixed the community. Thanks, you're welcome


http://forums.bgmod.com//index.php?showtopic=5946
Pollux
but I like my idea more than yours
LaBelle
:( Brb, going to make a new thread about how servers should use my ruleset instead.
Jupa
As the commander of TRR I would like to point out that our linebattle rules we're written back when officers used to literally meet in the center and bow to each other. Line battles are silly and everyone needs to quit taking them so seriously. Be nice to pubbers when you public linebattle and quit enforcing dumb rules like weapon selection.
LaBelle
QUOTE (Jupa @ Apr 26 2011, 01:56 AM) *
As the commander of TRR I would like to point out that our linebattle rules we're written back when officers used to literally meet in the center and bow to each other. Line battles are silly and everyone needs to quit taking them so seriously. Be nice to pubbers when you public linebattle and quit enforcing dumb rules like weapon selection.


One up.
James Asner
I'm speaking LITERALLY of 12 year old admins. I still don't know why you think this is about you. This is about the new clans that wander in with NO history in the bg community and pretend to linebattle. Do I need to embarrass them and call them out by name? You think ordering people around is tactless.

People that have just downloaded bg2 wander onto these servers and see these disorganized messes as linebattles. Then they come to us and wonder why they can't break SIMPLE rules. Don't shoot commanders, don't rambo, fire in a volley, hold formation. I'm tired of cleaning up their messes. If you don't follow these simple rules then don't call it linebattling. Bitch and complain all you want. Call me a tyrant; I really don't care anymore.

Fact is most of you have been reactionary pricks that either didn't read the OP or saw my name on it and assumed it was toxic. The only rational posts are from the dev team and they're in the awkward situation of defending me because they have an actual reason not to like me.

Back to the point at hand. Linebattling is a tradition in Battlegrounds whether you like them or not. You want to talk about toxic? Post something on the forums about a new map, a new clan, a new match that involves line formation and watch the trolls come out of the wood work. Nobody shits on skirmish teams but everyone has something bad to say about us. Now this post. The 29th linebattles. We take it seriously. Once in a while we wander onto other servers and check out the new clans and good things are happening. Excellent, you're keeping the tradition alive. Other times it's not so good. Lately though, it's been simply put, lazy.

So yeh, I want to teach players. I didn't say I was better than anyone else, but I know the rules and if you don't I'd like to help. I'm not half-assing it, though. I'll protect line formations in every way I can. You have an issue with that? Keep posting right here but I'm done listening.
Forlorn_Hope
*Ahem*

James, you can make some fair points, the problem is, you tend to wrap them in crazy. I personally have no feelings towards you in any shape or form, and I rather doubt any of the dev team does. Certainly, we laugh at some of the things you say, but honestly, we laugh about pretty much everyone on here. I can honestly say Nathan Hale and I have sat back over beers and laughed our asses off over stuff that's been said on the forums. But disliking everyone on here? Nah. If we hated everyone on this forum, we'd never get any sort of input to ignore.

I am rather disappointed that you say you're done listening. The fact that people want to cover their ears and yell at the top of their lungs really only proves that people on this forum are often incapable of having rational discussion.

Now, as for reactionary, dictator, blah blah blah, let's be honest people. This is a game. James Asner is as much a reactionary and a dictator as my cat is.

As to the meat of the discussion: Line battling is an ever-evolving game style. I'm sure there will be other rules that should probably be introduced to the system with the next patch, because again, things will change. But sadly, those rules will probably never come out, until everyone can come together and agree on a new set. I honestly have more hope of the Palestinians and the Israelis seeing eye to eye than that happening.

If a server owner puts an admin in charge of their server, that is the server owner's choice, regardless of what people may or may not think. They put the money down, they determine how their server is played, it's as simple as that. If it weren't for the fact that I'm anticipating a 100% pay cut come Christmas, and a 500% increase in bills soon after that, I would probably start up my own server and do it "right". But just like many other people, I don't have the Benjamins to do it "right", so I will merely politely suggest to server owners how they might better their servers, and if they don't take me up on it, I will continue to enjoy the game in whatever way I can. I can only advise everyone else who plays the game to do the same.
Ad-Man
"My server, my rules" - Aidan
Spartacus
Codename:V
QUOTE (James Asner @ Apr 26 2011, 12:02 AM) *
I'm tired of cleaning up their messes. If you don't follow these simple rules then don't call it linebattling. Bitch and complain all you want.


That's pretty hypocritical dude. You can't bitch that people are doing things wrong and then expect them not to bitch that you're out of line with your high expectations. It's a game. If you're stressed out from "cleaning up their messes" you should probably take a break from the game. You've been working too hard man. ;)
klifsnider
QUOTE (James Asner @ Apr 26 2011, 03:12 AM) *
My favorite is Klif defending 12 year old admins playing a game mode he HATES. Keep spending that capital, buddy!


Actually, I don't hate linebattles. You think all skirmishers do. But that's not correct. I've been in exponentially more linebattle clans and linebattle matches than you. I'm sure of it. Maybe you should get to know me better before attacking me. I started my bg2 "career" with linebattling, like most others that joined the community after 2006.

I also like how you say you're done listening when people don't agree with you. Reminds me of a 5 year old that's upset because his mother won't give him anymore cookies.

Please keep posting on this forum, your posts are hilarious and brought some of the older forum members back =)
LaBelle
QUOTE (James Asner @ Apr 26 2011, 04:02 AM) *
I'm speaking LITERALLY of 12 year old admins. I still don't know why you think this is about you. This is about the new clans that wander in with NO history in the bg community and pretend to linebattle. Do I need to embarrass them and call them out by name? You think ordering people around is tactless.

People that have just downloaded bg2 wander onto these servers and see these disorganized messes as linebattles. Then they come to us and wonder why they can't break SIMPLE rules. Don't shoot commanders, don't rambo, fire in a volley, hold formation. I'm tired of cleaning up their messes. If you don't follow these simple rules then don't call it linebattling. Bitch and complain all you want. Call me a tyrant; I really don't care anymore.

Fact is most of you have been reactionary pricks that either didn't read the OP or saw my name on it and assumed it was toxic. The only rational posts are from the dev team and they're in the awkward situation of defending me because they have an actual reason not to like me.

Back to the point at hand. Linebattling is a tradition in Battlegrounds whether you like them or not. You want to talk about toxic? Post something on the forums about a new map, a new clan, a new match that involves line formation and watch the trolls come out of the wood work. Nobody shits on skirmish teams but everyone has something bad to say about us. Now this post. The 29th linebattles. We take it seriously. Once in a while we wander onto other servers and check out the new clans and good things are happening. Excellent, you're keeping the tradition alive. Other times it's not so good. Lately though, it's been simply put, lazy.


Uh, pretty sure my second post was pretty rational, you just don't like to hear people say something contrary to what you believe. You're acting like a child when you say you're done listening, because I'm pretty sure just a few posts ago you claimed this thread was about discussion. It's attitudes like this that drive people away from Linebattling. LBing doesn't need to conform to the 29th or a certain ruleset, it needs to gain members and evolve. The TRR rules are OLD. People get tired of OLD. Fact is, a good number of the newer BG2 players are teenagers with no attention span.

Oh, and as for seeming "toxic," ask 29th how they acted when I proposed my new rule set to them on their server. Want an actual quote? "You just want to find a way to level the playing field with 29th." So this just leads me even more to believe that certain members of the 29th would kill themselves if they ever lost a linebattle. Grow a pair, take some criticism when you post am idea, and listen to the community instead of trying to white-wash them.
gRanTeLbArT
QUOTE (LaBelle @ Apr 26 2011, 01:44 AM) *
Oh yeah. That's where. No, this isn't anti-TRR. It's anti-TRR dick sucking.


That part of this actually annoyed me too.
analord
close this kk
gRanTeLbArT
QUOTE (analord @ Apr 26 2011, 07:30 PM) *
close this kk


that would end all the fun for everyone
LaBelle
QUOTE (gRanTeLbArT @ Apr 26 2011, 05:29 PM) *
QUOTE (LaBelle @ Apr 26 2011, 01:44 AM) *
Oh yeah. That's where. No, this isn't anti-TRR. It's anti-TRR dick sucking.


That part of this actually annoyed me too.


Annoyed you, how?
gRanTeLbArT
It's just weird. So I agree with you. We in TRR are not the pope or the catholic church or the people that always know it better and have brought the world the only one ever legal single be all and end all set of rules for playing linebattles.

We are not some sort of glorious heroes or something. Neither would we recommend enforcing strict rules on public LBs. What's the point of enforcing a certain weapon choice when people are just there to have fun (or because they just haven't left yet). Even the TRR RULES that according to asner have the status of the Ten Commandments do not say anything about weapons. Back then there was no choice of weapons.
LaBelle
Ahhh, I see what you mean now. You were annoyed by the Deifying, not my disclaimer XD. Well it's true, isn't it? Unintentionally, TRR has become the Gods of Linebattling, and Asner has seen the Burning Bush. What needs to happen? Idk, maybe let other clans conduct their own linebattles.
Codename:V
Nothing needs to happen. Life is fine. Asner needs to get laid. NP.
Forlorn_Hope
Oh, let's be honest. We ALL need to get laid.
Codename:V
Dude....premarital sex????????????
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